And he apologizes, but...

[leahbobet]

So I'm the last on this one, because my sleep cycle is screwed and I went to bed early, trying to fix it.

Would you believe that, having left the Hugo ceremonies immediately after my part in it, while it was still in progress ... and having left the hall entirely ... yet having been around later that night for Kieth Kato's traditional chili party ... and having taken off next morning for return home ... and not having the internet facility to open "journalfen" (or whatever it is), I was unaware of any problem proceeding from my intendedly-childlike grabbing of Connie Willis's left breast, as she was exhorting me to behave.

Nonetheless, despite my only becoming aware of this brouhaha right this moment (12 noon LA time, Tuesday the 29th), three days after the digital spasm that seems to be in uproar ...YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!!!

IT IS UNCONSCIONABLE FOR A MAN TO GRAB A WOMAN'S BREAST WITHOUT HER EXPLICIT PERMISSION. To do otherwise is to go 'way over the line in terms of invasion of someone's personal space. It is crude behavior at best, and actionable behavior at worst. When George W. Bush massaged the back of the neck of that female foreign dignitary, we were all justly appalled. For me to grab Connie's breast is in excusable, indefensible, gauche, and properly offensive to any observers or those who heard of it later.

I agree wholeheartedly.

I've called Connie. Haven't heard back from her yet. Maybe I never will.

So. What now, folks? It's not as if I haven't been a politically incorrect creature in the past. But apparently, Lynne, my 72 years of indefensible, gauche (yet for the most part classy), horrifying, jaw-dropping, sophomoric, sometimes imbecile behavior hasn't--till now--reached your level of outrage.

I'm glad, at last, to have transcended your expectations. I stand naked and defenseless before your absolutely correct chiding.

With genuine thanks for the post, and celestial affection, I remain, puckishly,

Yr. pal, Harlan

P.S. You have my permission to repost this reply anywhere you choose, on journalfen, at SFWA, on every blog in the universe, and even as graffiti on the Great Wall of China.


Followed up by...


HARLAN ELLISON
- Tuesday, August 29 2006 12:26:56
CONNIE WILLIS'S LEFT BREAST, REDUX

Did I fail to mention, I am 100% guilty as charged, and NO ONE should attempt to cobble up mitigating excuses for my behavior? As with everything else I REALLY DO (as opposed to the bullshit that is gossiped third-hand by dolts), I am responsible for my actions 100% and am prepared to shoulder all consequences, instead of shunting them off to Vice-President ScaryGuy.

Adultly said, Yr. pal, Harlan

HARLAN ELLISON
- Tuesday, August 29 2006 12:28:31
REDUX, REDUX'D

This may be what killed vaudeville.

he

HARLAN ELLISON
- Tuesday, August 29 2006 12:31:1
REDUX TERTIUS

How's chances of me playing either the "I'm an old man and my brain is leaking out of my ass" card ... or ... even better ...

"I'm an old Jew and this is just another example of anti-Semitism because all you goyim are pissed that Jews really DO control the whole world."

I can go either way.

Yr. pal, Harlan

HARLAN ELLISON
- Tuesday, August 29 2006 12:43:2
ONCE MORE INTO THE BREACH

On a more serious note: if, in fact, Connie (or Courtney, or Cordelia) were/are/might in any way be offended by this latest demonstration of give'n'take jackanapery between Connie and Harlan (now in its longest-run on Broadway), you may all rest assured I will apologize vehemently, will crawl to Colorado through broken glass and steaming embers, and beg her (their) forgiveness. I need no one to prompt me.

Harlan Ellison, a friend of Connie Willis


Full original text and beyond here

Discussion at Patrick Nielsen Hayden's place, Jim C. Hines's place, Elizabeth Bear's place, Catherine Morrison's place (and part two), Lis Riba's place, Edward Champion for starters. And of all places, Fandom Wank.



I do not have half the blood in my eye that I did when I posted initially, at which point I was sort of pacing my kitchen with clenched fists, trying to do my lunch dishes by afraid I might throw them instead. So, mad enough to forgo the rule I usually have about the internet and being really mad about something. I'm wasn't sure if it was a good idea even an hour afterward, but that's about methods of presentation -- asking myself if snarky, not-funny-humor-angry was the best way to make the point that I still feel needs making.

Here's why I was that angry:

I was raised to believe that I could be anything I wanted: a fireman, a scientist, a lawyer, a construction worker, whichever: anything within my ability and range of interest. Being a woman and being part of a (granted, not visible) minority should not be a barrier to what I wanted to do with my time. What would be noted and respected -- or not -- was my intellect, ability, and accomplishments: how valid or invalid the words coming out of my mouth would be.

What pnh characterized as the message of such a gesture:

"Remember, you may think you have standing, status, and normal, everyday adult dignity, but we can take it back at any time. If you are female, you'll never be safe. You can be the political leader of the most powerful country in Europe. You can be the most honored female writer in modern science fiction. We can still demean you, if we feel like it, and at random intervals, just to keep you in line, we will."

--still stands.

I can't remember the first time I got that message smacked into my face in full -- it was at a job, though. I can remember the first time it happened in a convention setting. I was sitting with a group of (male) friends in a room party at a local convention, and a guy came along with a cooler of beer. He talked with us for a bit, and then asked who wanted a beer. We were all legal to drink at that point. A few of us said yes. He gave them to my male friends, and then said to me: "the top of that cooler comes off when your top comes off."

Y'see, to anonymous guy with the cooler I could win the Hugo, the Nobel Prize, cure cancer, end war, and at the end of the day I'd still be a pair of tits. That's his sole interest in me as a human being: the two mammary bits on my chest. That's all I am.

Cue the uncomfortable laughter from my friends. None of them say hey, this isn't appropriate. I took it to security and made a complaint, with my male friends trailing along behind me, and one of them asked uncomfortably why I was making such a big deal of it.

These two attitudes -- that you can harass a woman verbally or physically in this community, and that when it happens it isn't in fact illegal, unwelcome, and wrong enough to merit even the official channels but should be forgiven by the woman -- are what I have a problem with. Harlan Ellison acting those two attitudes on two colleagues -- one a multiple Hugo winner and one much younger with her first book, a bestselling memoir, out this year -- is like this example grown large of what we let people get away with all the time in the welcoming, equal, inclusive SF community.

This incident, its participants and venue, spike the comfortable idea that you can get respected enough to not have to deal with this shit, to somehow remove yourself from the category that the rest of the women at conventions are in. It's the same idea that says you can not wear a revealing costume and not get bothered, or you can be a panelist and not get bothered, or you can sell a book and not get bothered. That you have any personal control over how you and your body will be treated in the place you go for your fun and professional activity, that there are any limits.

And you know what? This is our house too. This is our workplace.

So we have an apology, one that in the linked discussions has been read as variously sincere, unconcerned, flippant, offensive, and a host of other reactions, but I hope this explains why there is the distinct taste of dissatisfaction stuck to the roof of my mouth.

The apology is tendered, but the message remains.



Down in the comments of the angry post, cheshyre raises taking something positive from this, using it to make some positive change. I would damn well like to make some positive change here. This is past due.

But I really cannot say how. Public condemnation is useful, but only so useful as each person's capacity to realize that this applies to them and their potential or past actions, to their conscious and subconsious attitudes. We're up against the same problem if we want to make changes -- that the source of any inequality is in the held (unexamined or examined) attitudes of the people who perpetrate the inequality. I get the feeling this is the Big Question (tm) of any issue of rights: how to change the mind of someone who already looks at you as less than them.

So.

No fun tickybox polls on this post, folks, but I'd like to hear your ideas on how we get across that this kind of behaviour is no longer tolerated in our house, starting now.


ETA: Jim C. Hines already has a suggestion.

Comments

[kriz1818.livejournal.com]

So nice to know there's another "morning person" on LJ. Not that I managed to get up as early as usual today, but still.

As I see it, the biggest problem in dealing with this kind of thing is the differential between perceptions of male and female sexuality. In general and historically, male sexuality has not been used to demean the humanity and dignity of men. As a result, asking a guy how he would feel about being treated that way tends to backfire, because to a great many of them the idea of being groped by a lusty female doesn't seem like a bad thing. (Being groped by a lusty male might get a different reaction, but let's not bring homophobia into this, okay?)

So the problem is, what analogy or argument would actually *work*? "How'd you like it if somebody treated your mother/sister/girlfriend/wife like that?" is also unsatisfactory to me, because it draws on the "women are possessions to be hoarded" (whore-ded?) meme. So, what? I've been stumped.

Writing this out has made me think, though, why do we need to convince men that *they* wouldn't like like it? Damn, but that power differential has seeped into my *bones.* It should be enough to convince them that *we* don't like it, and that that's a good enough reason to not assault us AND to protest when other guys do!

[leahbobet.livejournal.com]

Hey. :) Not so much a morning person as, well, my sleep cycle's screwed right now -- I tend to the nocturnal when I don't have anywhere to be, and classes don't start up here for two weeks. So I stayed up night before last and went to bed really early last night (6pm), and hopefully we will be on a daylight schedule once again. :/

Yeah -- the power differential is just in every corner of this. Men might not on the whole mind being groped by a woman because they know the woman isn't a sexual threat to them. And then...yeah. Tangled.

What I actually keep thinking of is the China Mieville Metaphor (tm): I don't have my copy of Perdido Street Station (minor spoiler below) back from the person I lent it to too long ago. Where the crime the garuda character was dewinged for is referred to as a severe instance of "choice-theft", which, we eventually find out was a rape. And then the protagonist treats it as...both worse and different than he had through the rest of the book. I sort of liked that view: seeing it as having a rather fundamental, serious, and personal choice taken away.

I think the instinct is, yeah, to go for empathy, to go for the metaphor to express exactly how it feels, because women and men aren't exactly assigning the same concepts to the same words when it comes to this topic. We are, in a very abstract-linguistic way, not speaking the same language.

I do like to think that most men, if grasping just how bad it is to have that choice removed, would speak out loud and clear against it -- a lot seem to and do. I have a suspicion that a lot of people, as people tend to when something is far away, not easily empathized with, or just not their problem somehow, don't really care. People are self-centered -- people think about what affects them first.

So it becomes an issue of making people care, then?

[kriz1818.livejournal.com]

"Care" is such a (forgive me) limp word. Step One is making people acknowledge that there's a problem. Step Two is convincing them that they can and should take an active role in doing something about it - namely, not tolerating it, in both word and deed.

And that being said, I believe we're talking about re-memeing the SFF community, not the whole world (yet). This calls, frankly, for a sort of publicity campaign. Men and women need things to say, key phrases that have deliberately been given the resonance of that aggravating "boys will be boys" phrase. It needs to be discussed in blogs and message boards, magazines and conventions (panel discussions? squads of people should putting up slogan posters? Hey, it works for governments ...).

But right now I need to attend to the usual morning routine ... maybe when other people get up they'll have an idea or two.

[leahbobet.livejournal.com]

Heh -- substitute "give a shit" for "care", then? :) The distinction I'm trying to make with it is between acknowledging there's a problem in the distant, not-my-problem sort of way that reads: "oh yeah, racism/war in the Middle East/poverty, that's bad. Boo upon it, and I shall continue with my life now, no alterations made" and acknowledging there is a problem in the way where it sits in your gut and demands resolution. Making it an active issue, I guess.

Yup, just talking about re-memeing SFF at present. I'm not going to live long enough to do the whole world. I wonder how many people that takes...? (she said speculatively, with a glint in her eye)

[kriz1818.livejournal.com]

I read Hines' piece ... naturally, I think he's on the right track, since he mentioned making posters. 8-D

What's needed to actually change things is a *sustained* campaign. The Science Fiction and Fantasy Fandom Sexual Assault Awareness Campaign. SF³ SAAC for short. Motto: "Doing Something About the Weather." With posters, training sessions on handling sexual harassment for convention organizers, maybe an LJ or other blog community.

Of course, I haven't been to a convention in a decade or so, and can't afford to start going to them now (except maybe locally), so offering ideas seems like the most I'm going to be able to do. Maybe. I used to work for an employment attorney who I might be able to cozen into helping prep training materials "pro bono." And I had an idea for a poster.

Oh, dear. ;-)

[leahbobet.livejournal.com]

training sessions on handling sexual harassment for convention organizers

Now that is a serious smart idea.

If we can rustle up a crew interested in doing the training, I can put them in touch with some people who I know are involved in Worldcon-level conrunning.

[kriz1818.livejournal.com]

I could research and write something easily enough. It isn't really all that complicated.

I have to wonder, do con organizers even have coherent policies about conflicts and their resolution? Get thousands of people together and likker them up and there's bound to be arguments and even fights, I would think.

[stevenagy.livejournal.com]

Public condemnation is useful, but only so useful as each person's capacity to realize that this applies to them and their potential or past actions, to their conscious and subconsious attitudes.

Very well said. You have to learn from your mistakes -- and the mistakes of others.

[leahbobet.livejournal.com]

Hey, Steve, you're a boy. *g* Any ideas on how?

[stevenagy.livejournal.com]

I think you're already doing the right thing by speaking out about the incident.

There really isn't a solution that doesn't compound the situation. Anyone who needs "education" in what's proper behavior normally isn't going to accept it in the first place. Give credit to my mother and my wife. Both of them have strong personalities and wouldn't accept this kind of thing.

So talking about the situation should make people aware of what is or isn't accepted, as a society, as a community. Hopefully that will filter down and we'll grow out of it through both the positive and negative feedback. It's not an easy task. But every battle won is one step closer to winning the war.

Not that there's a war between men and women or that there should be one. It's more a struggle between id and superego and our attempts to cage the animal inside.

[hawkwing-lb.livejournal.com]

Because I get angry at a fundamental level about this kind of crap, my personal inclination would be to respond to any kind of sexual harassment, however mild, with violence.

But, this is not a useful response.

I think the issue at hand is the fact that a lot of guys don't recognise that what sexual harassment does is view your body as someone else's possession. Which is a fundamental violation of you as an autonomous individual (using 'you' in the general sense). And guys don't have the same flinch reflex as women, here, because their - our - culture has never really viewed them as property. Whereas women in most places still have to struggle to achieve practical (if no longer theoretical) equality.

Most of them don't see that violation, or don't care, I suppose. Getting them to see it as a fundamental violation of your right as an individual to determine what happens to your body - you don't submit to invasive surgery without your consent, and that is probably going to do something that benefits you, as opposed to harassment, which benefits only the harasser - would be a start, but I really don't know how one would go about doing that.

You can't make people acknowledge things they're determined to avoid looking at, really.

[leahbobet.livejournal.com]

You can't make people acknowledge things they're determined to avoid looking at, really.

Yeah. That's the core of the problem, I think. I'm wondering if there's any way to shove it in people's faces so firmly and inescapably that they can't not see it.

[hawkwing-lb.livejournal.com]

Yeah. If you find one, let me know. There's a whole lot of crap floating around that really shouldn't be ignored.

[noizangel.livejournal.com]

I struggled with a lot of this when I went on my kick vs. Pimp the Backhanding and White Wolf. Also, I'm re-reading 'Lip Service' by Kate Fillion, so there's a lot about mal and female tangled up in my head; I don't know how coherent it will be.

I've found that, in 'geek' cultures, there's a sort of weird throwback time bubble - for whatever reason (lack of female visibility for some time, etc.), women are rarely treated as equals, and this shows up in behaviour, cover art, wording... and so on and so on. I think there's a lot of leeway that men are given because SF/Anime/Gamer men are supposedly socially backwards - so even the guys who should know better display behaviour that is unacceptable.

I don't know if there's something to the idea that men use the accepting nature of fandom as an excuse - surely, if there's room for everyone, there should be room for sexism - or 'male rights' or something.

I like Hines' idea of the flyer if it's going to be enforced - if so, it could go a long way to making people feel safer. And that's all people, as I understand from friends that gay men can get a lot of the same crap.

Visibility, to me, is key. Speaking out is key. For every discouraging 'you take all this too seriously' crap comment, I like to believe there's at least one person that agrees.

I wish I'd gone to TTrek this year - I was supposed to be on a panel about how not to be a social moron with women at cons. It might have been interesting.

[leahbobet.livejournal.com]

Yeah, good point -- I agree that busting the treasured/resented socially inept geek myth might be big in making this community function. While it's somewhere where one may not be judged harshly for being shy or socially weird, you still must be this tall to ride the ride. There are basics.

Thanks for the pointers. :) I know the first time we crossed paths it was at a Women in Gaming panel, and I remember some of the things said there made a serious difference in how I approached my own rights around T-Trek and elsewhere.

(...and god, that con could use that panel...)

[noizangel.livejournal.com]

These are the basics, yes. You treat other human beings with the same respect that you would like to be treated with. It's so simple, yet seems like a difficult thing for some people to remember.

I'm glad the panel made a difference! It hasn't happened in awhile, but it -was- helpful in some ways. I wonder if it makes sense to do some feminist geek meetup from time to time or something, if only for venting/defensive idea purposes.

As for the other panel - sad, but true. I thought it was a brilliant idea - was just too broke to manage this year. All I do is go to panels and drink anyway. ;)

[commodorified.livejournal.com]

I once went to the Saturday night of a con wearing several rounds of that bright yellow tape that says CAUTION DO NOT CROSS THIS LINE looped over my outfit.

Reactions were good, and often thoughtful.

The stuff is cheap, it goes with everything, it can be brought along and distributed easily by as little as one person per con, and it is very very visible.

It's not too much more expensive, IIRC, to get yourself a bunch of it printed up with any message you like, but even just CAUTION is good.

And people will say "what's with the tape?" and you can tell them.

[leahbobet.livejournal.com]

Hah! I like that. :) Perhaps I will bring me a roll to WFC.

some early morning ramblings from the west coast...

[obake.livejournal.com]

I haven't been to a proper sci-fi/fantasy convention in years, so I guess I'm really out of the loop. I do regularly attend Camarilla (White Wolf) conventions and I have to say that the attitude there is really different. It is absolutely unconscionable to grope someone (male or female) like that. I've thought about it and I think there's a cultural divide. One of the primary LARP rules is No Touching without permission and I think that game rule somehow carries over to the social aspect of the convention.

So, with that in mind, I don't think you should focus on how to change the mind of someone who already looks at you as less than them, but rather how to change the culture in which this sort of behavior is acceptable. Generalization: men do it because they don't think there's anything wrong with it and women take it because "it's what men do" or they don't believe they can do anything about it. Up until recently, women were considered property, just like slaves, cattle, and land. I think the over-culture is slowly changing so that the rights of women (culturally, not legally speaking) are catching up to what are perceived to be the rights of men. Over-cultural equality will take generations.

Sub-cultures can change faster, but it will still take years. It has to start with an agreement from a core group of the sub-culture as to what the cultural standards will be. Then it will take persistent reinforcement. Posted signs will be looked at strangely at first, then laughed at and made fun of, and then it will settle into the subconscious. When you (the people who want to enact change) see something that is counter to your change, then you must confront it and explain why the behavior is unacceptable. Constantly and consistently.

I was a tomboy growing up and still am to a degree (though since high school I have learned how not to fall over in high heels, how to sit in a skirt, and how to put on make-up). I've been fighting the male over-culture all my life. And it is a constant, everyday fight--from looking men right in the eye to giving firm handshakes to quoting their sexist bullshit right back at them. In order to enact a cultural change, that's the kind of work you're looking at.

Re: some early morning ramblings from the west coast...

[ringwoodcomics.livejournal.com]

So, with that in mind, I don't think you should focus on how to change the mind of someone who already looks at you as less than them, but rather how to change the culture in which this sort of behavior is acceptable.

Concur. I see complacency as the enemy, currently. Since Ellison issued what is (for him) probably a sincere apology, many will consider the matter closed for all time... until the next time it happens. Then collective amnesia will settle in for many of the Old Boys' Club, and they will act as if it's the first time and wonder why everyone's getting upset at this one little thing... and around and around we go.

Which is why the pressure must be maintained. The best place to start would be the cons, and the con organizers. Security and guest escort should be tighter, of course, but that's true anywhere.

I come from a background of attending a handful of comics conventions. I have some idea of how the "mainstream" ones go. And the prevalent mentality is upsetting, to say the least. I really don't like browsing Artist Alley and running smack dab into a booth for a porn star. This, at a supposedly family-oriented pop culture convention (Wizard World, to be specific).

I think it would be worlds more beneficial to suggest/lobby for a change in con mentality and behavior in times of relative "peace," versus during flare-ups like these. It's too easy for the ostriches to dismiss an angry person because of their anger, no matter how just it is. A reasoned (and stubbornly persistent) appeal to con organizers could do a lot to see the atmosphere change. Gradually, perhaps, but "inches and degrees" is better than nothing at all.

Re: some early morning ramblings from the west coast...

[leahbobet.livejournal.com]

Yes. All true, and thank you.

Re: some early morning ramblings from the west coast...

[leahbobet.livejournal.com]

Yeah. At this point, I'm prepared to do it.

Have you ever had a situation where someone broke those rules in the LARP crowd, if I can ask, and how was it treated?

Re: some early morning ramblings from the west coast...

[noizangel.livejournal.com]

I want to say, from my experience, it depends on the LARP. But generally, I find it's more or less self-policing in the Toronto scene - but I think we are the exception rather than the rule - we've a close-to-equal ratio, and there's been very little crap. I am very thankful for that.

The times that the rules have been transgressed in a potentially violent or just uncomfortable manner, the people responsible have been booted for anywhere from 3 months to permanently. It hasn't happened in a long time.

Re: some early morning ramblings from the west coast...

[obake.livejournal.com]

I was discussing this with a friend of mine who is also in the CamLARP crowd. The Camarilla does have some advantages in that there are codes of conduct that govern how members should treat each other. Also since the type of game we play involves a very conscious understanding of social structure, many of the members are hyper-aware of social situations (which has its drama-llama drawbacks, I assure you).

But, the rules of the club cannot govern behavior that is outside of an official club event. Even so, behaviors such as illegal drug use and sexual harassment seem to be much less tolerated than in other sci-fi/fantasy sub-cultures. Social censure plays an extremely large roll in dissuading and shutting down unacceptable behaviors. The last person I know who got blatantly caught doing drugs at a party became unwelcome at other parties for years--turned away at the door or ejected once people found out who he was.

After polling some of the guys in the club using BeerCooler Guy as an example, they all agree that, regardless of whether they know the woman in question, BCG would have been promptly ejected from the social group (with varying amounts of bravado involved in how he gets ejected). 100% inappropriate behavior. The likely follow up would be that by the next night of the convention, he would be widely known as That BeerCooler Guy. The amount of social censure would depend on how he responded to it. If he apologized, sincerely, he may still get ribbed about it, the story passed down from older members to younger members about how not to act.

Re: some early morning ramblings from the west coast...

[ide-cyan.livejournal.com]

So, with that in mind, I don't think you should focus on how to change the mind of someone who already looks at you as less than them, but rather how to change the culture in which this sort of behavior is acceptable.

You mightn't change their mind, but, through political action, you can change their behaviour.

outside looking in

[(Anonymous)]

COming in late here but I've known about it since it happened.

Everything that's been said here and a seemingly a million other places is hearsay unless it was said by Connie or Harlan.

You're all getting offended for someone who is more than capable of defending herself should the need arise and who may have not been offended at all since Harlan is an old, old friend and apparently this sort of thing has been going on between the two of them for quite some time.

I will say that I personally have been groped, spanked and stroked by friends of both sexes in jest and never found myself offended or defended; I didn't need the latter because the former never occured and was never intended and that's enough for me even if it did occasionally go too far.

I'm going to wait until Connie weighs in on the subject before I, who wasn't there and didn't participate, decide what really happened and how I feel about it.

Kell

Re: outside looking in

[leahbobet.livejournal.com]

Hi, there. :)

I think the video is pretty conclusive stuff.

I'd like to ask you to reread the above post and the comments to it: I don't believe at all that we're getting offended on the behalf of Connie Willis. I'm actually pretty offended on my own behalf, because the community that I'm part of chooses to condone, look the other way on, and apologize for this kind of behaviour every day. People weren't shocked that it happened, they were shocked that it happened to Connie Willis in the most public space at Worldcon. That's the attitude that needs changing in fandom and prodom.

I'm glad that your comfort with other people and your physical space is so...well, comfortable. It's a tough thing to achieve for a lot of people, especially people who are not as happy with their bodies, shy, or just introverted/have a strong sense of what is their personal space allotment. I'm sure you understand, however, that your sense of personal space is not mine is not the next person's, and the next person has to have a place where they're comfortable to hang out and work too. We can't just leave it at you and me.

I respect that you're waiting to hear what all parties have to say about it, but I'll ask you to please likewise respect that for many people this has highlighted a recognized issue in the community, and we don't require the participants in what can be termed the straw that broke the camel's back to weigh in on an issue they're only tangentially involved in.

Thanks for your thoughts and opinion!

Re: outside looking in

[(Anonymous)]

Given. It's not like you should have to wait on a specific incident to motivate people. If it's a problem, it's a problem and you shouldn't have to put up with it.

I have a small problem people characterizing this specific incident as the straw that broke the camel's back without knowing what actually went on. If it's part of the regular give and take of their relationship I don't think it's a part of this discussion.

I do have a slightly bigger problem in that I don't want to have the boundries of my relationships at these sorts of events defined by the minority offenders or just as bad, the random bodies nearby. I'm all for suggestion of providing education services and training people how to deal with those people who can't judge when they're crossing the line. If it comes to wearing colour coded t-shirts or some other identifying code as some have suggested my days at these events are over.