Subtext is Everything

[leahbobet]

It seems there is a new FAQ at the very top of the SFWA home page, titled "Why Should I Join SFWA?" and featuring responses from the current president to "real letters" asking this very question.

I browsed through and found one of the questions/answers notable.

Q: I've heard there's some tension in SFWA between the old crowd of established writers and the "newbies" like me. Will I feel uncomfortable?

A: A good rule to follow is: Never give too much weight to a few strident voices. For as long as the organization has existed, a few loud voices have always declared that the Old Farts should dry up and blow away and make room for the Young Writers Who Really Have Something To Say. Most new members' experience is of how open to questions and how generous in giving advice the more established members are.

I find the subtext to this answer -- and the very existence of this FAQ -- interesting in the extreme.

Discuss?

Comments

[mroctober.livejournal.com]

Except for voting and receiving the Bulletin, I don't think my membership (since expired) earned me anything.

[leahbobet.livejournal.com]

I've heard that attitude among several people who've let their memberships lapse. I suspect that lapsing is connected to the interestingness of subtext displayed above.

[(Anonymous)]

I think this is a problem seen at all writing organizations. There has been many such stories about the HWA, as well.

I'm not a member of any writing organization, and have no intentions of joining any, but I've heard these groups are good for exchanging advice with other writers, and that's about it.

The members of these organizations can be divided into two groups of people. Those who join in order to converse with other writers, and those who join because they believe membership will some sort of VIP pass to the Glorious Kingdom of Publishing. These latter believe that putting "SWFA member" or "HWA member" on their cover letters will prompt editors to give them special attention.

And who knows, maybe some editors are bowled over by such things. But I willing to bet that most of them don't care. It's the story that matters, not the membership cards one carries in his/her pocket.

Ian

[dsgood.livejournal.com]

My experience is that some established sf/fantasy writers are very willing to give advice if asked.

And some are only too willing to give unsolicited advice.

[leahbobet.livejournal.com]

Heh. Yes, I have experience with that, from not just established writers, but some people in fandom as well.

Some of them were acting from much better intentions than others.

[katallen.livejournal.com]

I am reminded of the proverbial Victorian mother's advice to the newly-wed bride -- lie back and think of England :)

[leahbobet.livejournal.com]

Heh, yes.

(mmmm. England.)

[cpolk.livejournal.com]

...for some reason that was really, really dirty.

no, i mean really.

[leahbobet.livejournal.com]

...okay, I didn't mean it that way.

But now I do. :D

[jeffpalmatier.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure that was the advice Queen Victoria gave to her daughter for her wedding night. Then she proceeded to advise her daughter on the best ways to achieve orgasm and how to perform great fellatio. Just kidding.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

"The only reason a new writer might not want to join our fine organization is if they were led astray by strident voices who do not value experience."

Riiiiiiight.

The other one has bells on, I swear.

[leahbobet.livejournal.com]

And I have this beachfront property I'd be willing to sell you. Sunny Nebraska!

[cpolk.livejournal.com]

A: A good rule to follow is: Never give too much weight to a few strident voices.

The colon after the word is: Looks awkward.

For as long as the organization has existed, a few loud voices have always declared that the Old Farts should dry up and blow away and make room for the Young Writers Who Really Have Something To Say.

okay, so it would be a dandy place if those damn kids weren't trying to change the establishment?

you know, I realized that I'm 2/3 of the way to qualifying for SFWA.

I will add that I did not think, "so obviously I must join really soon."

I mean, what for? What's in it for me?

[leahbobet.livejournal.com]

Yes. I have enough qualifying credits for me and two of my friends. Yet I keep finding they still do not have my money. Stuff like this is becoming part of why they still are moneyless.

[mmarques.livejournal.com]

Very interesting how it's worded. If they just got rid of the "For as long as" sentence, it might have looked warm and welcoming. But that sentence about the old versus young just makes me *squick*.

[leahbobet.livejournal.com]

Oh my yes.

There is a definite statement about who is welcome and who is not at work.

[blackaire.livejournal.com]

I find two ideas at work here:

A) All you whippersnappers need to recognize mah vast experience! I was writing new weird before new weird was cool! I hate anyone who still has all their original organs and joints! Get off my lawn!

B) I'm a pretentious MFA with one small-press book to my name who won't shut the fuck up about my "craft", and am irritating the shit out of everyone who's been around long enough to see a hundred like me get spat out the other end of the industry.

Take your pick, depending on demographic :D.

[leahbobet.livejournal.com]

I hate anyone who still has all their original organs and joints! Get off my lawn!

*dies* I think I need an icon with "Get off my lawn!" on it. :D

I had a small hesitation due to knowing that B is true sometimes -- I saw enough people come through workshop mailing lists wanting to Revolutionize Publishing! because they couldn't be arsed to learn standard manuscript format or something to know that sometimes one has to pull one's long organ of experience out and slam it on the table loudly.

However, if I am reading the reason for that answer aright, the people who are Young And Know Everything aren't people to be sneezed at. Which I suppose is what I would say, having all my original organs... *g*

[blackaire.livejournal.com]

Why, back in my day, we scratched our manuscripts onto dead animals with berry juice...

Okay, I can't sustain that. At 22 I'm firmly a B. And I agree with you on your last point. I don't broadcast my age (well, except on ElJay comments, apparently...) for that very reason.

[leahbobet.livejournal.com]

*nod* I first started publishing when I was 19 (lo these five years ago), and I made a point of never mentioning my age. Best to just skip all the assumptions that come with it.

[jeffpalmatier.livejournal.com]

Oh, boy. It's unfortunate that there are people like this that you have to deal with. I'm one day from turning 37. I really go out of my way to keep from coming off as condescending towards people who are substantially younger than myself because I remember how I couldn't stand it when it was done to me. I finally realized that the people who do so are very insecure. Their self-image is easily threatened, and they want to feel like they are superior in any way possible, so they immediately underestimate the abilities of those younger than them--or for any other reason, for that matter. What really sucks is when these people are in positions of power over you because in my experience there's not a goddamn thing you can do about it. All you can really do is to try to avoid dealing with them whenever possible.

[leahbobet.livejournal.com]

I think there's a lot more to it than blanket insecurity -- our society is still a really hierarchical one, and there's this idea ingrained that experience is well, valuable, and the old should teach the young, the young respect the elder. Honour thy father and mother, right?

And there's also an idea that "youth" is the time when you're supposed to be radical, so if you come out with something like that people figure you don't really mean it? Because you'll get older, undergo retrenchment, and settle into society as it is?

I mean, this was a lot more overt fifty years ago than it is now. But a lot of the people trying to deal with the changing paradigm were raised or around fifty years ago or raised by the people around fifty years ago, so they don't quite know what to do with it.

[squirrel-monkey.livejournal.com]

In terms of writing, it is even more complicated than that -- some of us (me) started writing well in our thirties; thus, in terms of publishing experience/taste some of the chronologically older people might find themselves ideologically closer to the twenty-something set. They're also the newer SFWA members who are often in disagreement with the old guard -- even though they might be not that different age-wise.

[pjthompson]

Some people are kids at 22, some are fully-formed adults. Some people are kids at 60, some are fully-formed adults. Therefore, treat people as people, not age subsets. It does swing both ways, though. The prejudice is deep and knee jerk on both ends of the spectrum.

[secritcrush.livejournal.com]

I think I need an icon with "Get off my lawn!" on it. :D

A good slapfight icon is indespensible in these modern times.

[squirrel-monkey.livejournal.com]

This quote would look a lot more accurate if they also mentioned the few strident voices that loudly demand that younger members just shut up and listen to the voice of experience, and surely no one with less than a hundred published novels can't have anything to say. IMO, this is where much of alleged tension is coming from.

[leahbobet.livejournal.com]

Does present a very definite political stance, doesn't it? And I wonder if they've thought that stance through, as morewineplease was saying downthread.

[sallytuppence.livejournal.com]

Veeerrrry interesting indeed! My experience of the horrible SFWA lounge is that the reactionary "old farts" (not all of whom are old) are always, always putting down anyone who dares suggest changing anything. Sometimes maliciously, sometimes passively aggressive.

So yeah, interesting subtext.

Data point. I've been a SFWA member since 2003 and I will not be renewing my membership this year. I don't expect SFWA do DO anything for me, beyond providing community, and a resource where I can go with questions. When I joined, I was excited to nominate things for the Nebula, and looked forward to interesting articles in the Bulletin.

But the SFWA culture, as reflected in the Lounge, is poisonous. People always say, "SFWA is not the Lounge" but I don't see any proof, anywhere, that this is true. The Nebula awards, the bulletin, the whole culture of the organization is sick.

My conclusion about SFWA: it wants to pretend it is a professional organization, but it is not.

[leahbobet.livejournal.com]

If they have seen a need to put up a membership FAQ as the very first item on the front page, I suspect they are walking a road where they will not be a professional organization in any way very soon. I'm just wondering which of the major causes of membership non-renewal it was this year that spurred it.

If they're putting up that FAQ, clearly the road does not have a speed limit.

[raecarson.livejournal.com]

omg

[morewineplease.livejournal.com]

Not being anywhere near eligibility for SFWA, thought I'd throw my two cents in here about associations as a whole. I work for a non-profit association in the daylight hours and I have to mention that the entire concept of associations is going through exactly this. The generations (the Traditionalists, the Boomers, the Xers and the Millennials) are at odds over what an association is and should be. I find it all very interesting and very frustrating.

There has to be compromise. There have to be benefits for everyone. You hate to say it, but there will not *be* an association if future generations and up-and-comers are not satisfied. I wonder if SFWA has thought about that.

But, like I said, I say this in general--which is based off mucho trade press stuff I am force fed at work--since I don't have the faintest idea what SFWA does. *g*

[leahbobet.livejournal.com]

You hate to say it, but there will not *be* an association if future generations and up-and-comers are not satisfied. I wonder if SFWA has thought about that.

Mmmhmmm. :)

I'm sure it'll come to them...eventually?

[kafkonia.livejournal.com]

You mean how the answer is phrased in such a way as to make it sound like the onus for any tension is entirely on the "New Guys"?

[leahbobet.livejournal.com]

Mmhmmm. :) And a few other features of the general existence of that FAQ.

[kafkonia.livejournal.com]

In all honesty, the SFWA and the merits of joining it (or lack thereof) haven't really crossed my mind in years, so I haven't ever checked out the FAQ in detail. I think I may have a copy of the Bulletin that I scammed at TorCon, but that might be my faulty memory, being an old fart of a young upstart.

[karenthology.livejournal.com]

Wow. That's just --

-- not really welcoming to anyone, is it? Boggles the mind.